Permission for Pleasure
A podcast to educate and equip women with the information and confidence they need to express, experience and enjoy their sexuality. Cindy Scharkey RN, BSN, brings her 35+ years of experience as a healthcare professional to open the doors to healthy conversations about sex. This is a community where you can listen and learn to give yourself permission for pleasure. Visit www.cindyscharkey.com for educational blogs and newsletter.
Permission for Pleasure
Practicing Flow State Sex
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How do we make good sex … great? Dr. Emily Jamea joins me to talk about specific tools for optimal sexual experiences and what the research shows works! We discuss finding your sexual flow for higher sexual satisfaction, sensuality and eroticism in long term relationships and the importance of curiosity and practice for developing and maintaining a vibrant sex life worth wanting!
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Emily Jamea, PhD, LMFT, LPC is a sex and relationship therapist, researcher, and author. In addition to running her Houston-based private therapy practice, REVIVE therapy & healing, she offers online workshops, conducts academic research on optimal sexual experiences, and serves as an expert speaker for both public and private events.
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We have a great community that's listening, sharing, downloading, growing. It's just delightful. I'm so glad you're here. I do want to remind you that I have a question box for the podcast. If you have a question that you would like to ask anonymously, you can answer it over on the podcast page at sendatearky.com. And while you're there, I'd love for you to sign up for my newsletter. I offer curated sex education once a month. I call it good education for good sex. I hope you'll join me. That link will be in the show notes. Now on to today's show. My guest today is Dr. Emily Demia. Emily is a sex and relationship therapist, researcher, and author. In addition to running her assistant-based private therapy practice, she offers online workshops and conducts academic research on optimal sexual experiences. She hosts a podcast called Sex and Love with Emily Jamia. Emily, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.
SPEAKER_00Tell us a little bit about how or why you came into this work. I'd I'd love to start there, just a little bit about your story.
SPEAKER_01Sure. So I grew up in the South, which was very conservative around sexuality, but my family was not. My dad is an OBGYN, so it was never a taboo subject for us growing up. And, you know, it quickly became apparent that for a lot of my friends it still was. And so I think I naturally fell into the role of advice giving around sexuality, whether it was asking me questions or friends asking me if I could ask my dad something about, you know, related to gynecology or their oral contraceptive or whatever. And so it's just something I've always felt very comfortable discussing. And then when I was at college studying psychology, I took a human sexuality elective. And at that point, I was just hooked. Um, because I think that, you know, our sexuality and our psychology are so intrinsically wound up in each other. I think it's, you know, obviously so important for relationships. It motivates so much of our behavior or can be affected by so many things going on in our lives. Um, and so at that point, I decided to gear my work um in the field of sexology. And I think by the time I graduated UT, I had taken like all four human sexuality electives that the university offered. And, you know, that's I think, yeah, so from a pretty early age, it's I think it felt like a calling for me.
SPEAKER_00Wow. That's fun, fun to hear how you came to that. One of your quotes on your website, Emily, is it is my belief that the healthier we are as individuals, the more deeply we connect in our relationships, and the greater sense of aliveness we bring to our erotic encounters. I love that. Let's let's just start right there.
SPEAKER_01A lot to unpack.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, let's unpack even that a little bit about how you describe aliveness.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I think sex is so life-affirming, you know, so much so that for some people, you know, when they're not having it or they're feeling unfulfilled in some way or dissatisfied that it can feel almost like an existential crisis for them. And, you know, that's what people come into my office off oftentimes feeling like, you know, there's it's not just I'm unhappy with this, but it's that fundamental like something is missing from my life. And they can feel, you know, lack of sex can make people feel kind of dead inside. I think it's it's life affirming, it's fulfilling when, you know, it's going really well, it's not optimal, it can feel, you know, almost out of body or spiritual for some people. And so a lot of people, you know, when they've caught a glimpse of that or have some of those experiences, and then for whatever reason they're not, it's a pretty big deal. People don't realize how fulfilling and wonderful good sex can be. And so I think that's part of my mission is is helping people find that special joy.
SPEAKER_00I I was listening to Peggy Kleinplatz on a podcast recently. She's done a lot of research, right, out of Canada with her team on couples and what makes optimal sex. And that's one of the reasons I reached out to you because you you're doing your own research in this area. And I would love for you to tell, tell the listeners a bit about that.
SPEAKER_01Definitely, yeah. And Peggy Kleinpatz and I have had a lot of conversations too, because there is so much overlap between our work, some of the differences in my research are finding, you know, when people connect to things like curiosity or sensuality, you know, or outside the box thinking, like outside the bedroom, that that energy can transfer in. And so I think that's a less intimidating place for people to start sometimes who maybe aren't ready to dive headfirst into like what they can do with their sex life. It starts with like, what can I do with myself? Um, you know, people who tend to be very type A and have to have everything in life very predictable, like those people tend to struggle a little bit more sexually. And so, you know, just I use that as an example of it's a new way of approaching sex that while it may seem that it's starting a little bit more on the periphery, can actually have a really profound impact. In my latest research study, it was the first study that looked at the relationship between a flow state and sexual satisfaction. And so a lot of times when we hear flow state, we think of like extreme sports like surfing. Maybe you've heard a surfer describe feeling at one with a wave, or you know, people in the arts who will just play their instrument for, you know, long periods of time or get lost in painting or whatever it is. And so there just hasn't been a lot of research on that state of being during sex and what effect that can have on sexual satisfaction. And so um our study looked at that and found that flow was a really strong predictor of sexual satisfaction. And I think what makes that so exciting is that now we can teach people, okay, here's what you need to do to induce a flow state, because that's something that can be taught. And by doing that, more like you know, your sexual satisfaction is likely to increase. And if you're more satisfied, you're gonna want to do it more. So it has that, you know, effect, I think, on boosting desire. So it's just a new way of conceptualizing the treatment of sexual issues.
SPEAKER_00Let's go back to the first part because it totally resonates with this podcast, which is permission for pleasure. And we have a pleasure practice of uh stopping and noticing what delights us, what brings us pleasure outside of sex in everyday life, training ourselves, I'm encouraging the community to do this, but that's basically what you're saying. And outside of sex. Learning to engage our sexuality and our pleasure and acknowledging delight will transfer in many ways into our sexuality and being able to experience pleasure and delight there.
SPEAKER_01That's a hundred percent accurate. Yes. It is a you know, a neural pathway that is established. And if it's not established outside the bedroom, you can't expect for it to suddenly show up in the bedroom. And unfortunately, I think we live our lives not such that we don't give ourselves permission for pleasure, but we don't even create space for pleasure and delight. I mean, diet, we kind of take pleasure out of eating, which I think there's so much overlap between sex and food and you know, the culinary arts. I so I always am encouraging people to practice fine-tuning sensuality and pleasure through food and cooking and engaging the five senses there. You know, and then just like with technology, you know, we're just so switched on all the time that we don't realize how turned off that can make us feel because we're just not in touch with what's happening in our body. You know, we rely on apps to tell us what our heart rates are rather than just tuning in and asking yourself, do I feel out of breath right now? Right. Turning off the phones and reconnecting with our bodies, I think, is a really important first step for people and slowing down.
SPEAKER_00I agree a hundred percent. You mentioned uh curiosity, and I love that idea of encouraging ourselves to be curious, you know, engage that curiosity. We have so much of that as young people, and then we just let it go, you know. Tell me, tell me a little bit about that piece and what you saw in your research.
SPEAKER_01What I want people to remember, every component that I look at, in my opinion, we are born with. Like you said, kids are so curious. I read a statistic that the average four-year-old asks 400 questions a day, and the average middle schooler asks like two questions a day. And it's usually like, is that gonna be on the test or can I go to the bathroom? Right. I have a daughter who's three and a half, and we have officially entered the why stage. So I'm like, yep, that's like question 365 of the day. It's a little exhausting, but I love it, and I want to just encourage her to always ask questions. So my point is that we we have all of the tools within ourselves. And so it's not a matter, I think, of creating something totally foreign. It's just a matter of reconnecting with that which is already within us. It's kind of a matter of asking yourself, do I need to slow down a little bit and really get in touch with my senses, like we were talking about earlier? Or have I kind of stagnated and do I need to shake things up a little bit and discover something new about myself? You know, after being stuck at home last year with COVID and I had had my second baby, and you know, when I finally decided to go back in person, I needed to go shopping for like work clothes again because my body wasn't quite the same after having a baby and been over a year at home. And while my husband was not too thrilled with the charges to a credit card after my shopping, you know, when he comes downstairs and sees me like looking so professional again, like he loves that. And it's because I'm like tapping back into this part of myself that was a little bit neglected over the past year. And so even little things like that can have a really profound effect. And so, you know, whether couples you know sign up for a class together, take vacation to a new place together, all of that, I think adds to who we are.
SPEAKER_00You talk a lot about sensuality, and I I feel that's such an important piece. We we want to encourage people to be intentional with. I really like your language around it is within us. We just need to tap tap into that. What might be a couple ways, like tangibly, people could do that with their sensuality, do you think?
SPEAKER_01I think the first step is disconnecting from technology for periods of time. I really think that is the simplest, most important thing that people can do. Because the other effect that has is it allows us to get into a flow state, right? Like even with work. If I have, you know, my cell phone next to my laptop and I'm trying to write a new article, just knowing that I might be interrupted is enough to keep my attention a little bit split. And so sometimes it's about switching it to flight mode, putting it in the other room so that I can really get in the zone into whatever it is that I'm trying to do. You know, we're just so constantly interrupted. We don't have very long periods of focused time anymore. You know, whether it's turning off the phone or not, just trying to carve out periods of time where you can dedicate a hundred percent of your energy and attention on something, I think is a good skill to master. Because if you don't do that in your day-to-day life, it's gonna be really hard to focus during sex, which is a really big problem for people. I mean, especially for women. I hear it every single day. People come in saying, you know, I want to want to have sex, but I can just, I cannot turn my mind off. And it's interesting, I actually reached back out to the first supervisor I had when I was becoming a sex therapist to ask her if she remembered her clients complaining about that the way that I'm experiencing now. And I reached out to her because at the time she started supervising, she had retired from seeing clients. And so the peak of her career was more in the you know, late 80s, 90s, early 2000s before cell phones, for example, were such a big thing. In a lot of ways, life was simpler back then. And so we had a conversation about that. And she said, Emily, I do not remember people saying every day that they can't turn their mind off. There were other issues. They would talk about worrying too much whether or not they were gonna have an orgasm or they were erection watchers or whatever, but they weren't talking about the running to-do list in their mind, the way you're describing your clients. We've just overloaded ourselves. And so, how can you expect to go from being so overbooked, over-scheduled, overstressed, overcommitted, to then focusing 100% on your partner, let alone enjoy pleasure?
SPEAKER_00This is just I'm trying to give a tangible example to the community. Is I have a practice of not engaging my phone first thing in the morning and having at least some moments of quiet. I need my coffee with my quiet, but just not engaging my brain in technology, my phone, the computer, yeah. Allowing just those moments in the morning to uh to wake up my mind and maybe process what uh went on in my mind during my sleep. And it's a matter of a practice of starting what you're talking about to begin your day. And when I don't do that now, after having done that practice for a couple of years, I struggle, I struggle.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm very olfactory. So I have like a candle that I light when I'm seeing clients and a different one that I light when I'm writing. You know, even if it seems minute ritual that you can carve out throughout the day that engages the senses in some way, I think can have a really profound effect.
SPEAKER_00We can't poo-poo that. That is a that's just a huge reset, those types of things, especially like for me, another one is getting outside. So I'm I'm an outside person. And just even to step outside, look at what's blooming, uh, listen to the birds, uh, watch the squirrel to my blueberries, or whatever, but that allows me to kind of sigh and take a breath, relax my shoulders, like re-engage with my body and pay attention. It doesn't have to be long, but I think you're right on with initiating those kinds of rituals. And being intense, I keep saying that, but it's being intentional about doing that.
SPEAKER_01Yes. You have to dedicate yourself, stay on top of it. Because it's easy to get stuck back in to the monotony or the old bad habit.
SPEAKER_00Perhaps let's talk about the flow state a little bit more because your research is around that, really around long-term monogamous relationships, right? You know, I'm in the over 55 crowd and I've been with the love of my life my whole life. So I love research around this because I truly believe sex gets better and better and better as we age and learn one another and learn ourselves. Often when I do workshops with younger women, they'll say, okay, better, or is it like it's like going to movies now, or I read a book like it's only when you're young? And I just I always look them dead in the eye and say, I can tell you that it gets better and better. We hear so much negative information about sexuality over 50. That is just garbage. So talk to me about that and about the a little bit more about flow.
SPEAKER_01So, what is a flow state? So there's basically eight components of flow. You know, there are things like when there's like a loss of sense of self. So kind of that internal dialogue in your head quiets down. Um, there's a sense of merger with whatever you're doing. There is um time can be distorted, either it seems to speed up or slow down. There's intense focus on whatever it is you're engaged in. There's a really nice ratio between challenge and skills, meaning that your skill set is such that maybe you're doing something that's just a hair outside your comfort zone, which will help with focus. And so those are just some of the components of flow. And as I was saying earlier, I know a lot of times when we hear flow, we hear it described in things like extreme sports, like surfing or rock climbing or or the arts. And what I like to begin by telling people is people don't get into a flow state usually the first time they're on a surfboard or the first time they sit down at a piano. It comes when you're kind of an expert. And the same concept applies to sex in long-term relationships. Yes, in the honeymoon stage of the relationship, people will probably say that they experience a flow state during sex because everything is so intense. You know, we think is more driven by A, the novelty and B, just the neurochemicals that are surging through your bloodstream, making you feel like you're high on cocaine and the rose-colored glasses are on, right? But that's not sustainable long term. And so a lot of people think when that initial intensity phase and intimacy settles in, and maybe the sex doesn't initially feel as intense, well, that's because it's no longer a passive process. Now it's an active process. And just like any of the other activities I just described, whether it's painting or rock climbing or golf, even, you know, you have to be intentional about practicing it and you have to carve out time for it, and you have to prepare for it. There is usually a little bit of a struggle phase, you know, when someone paddles out on a surfboard, they're not really in a flow state at that point in time. And again, the same principle I think applies during sex that you can't expect to have a flow state within the first five minutes. Everyone thinks that it should happen automatically or instantly, and when it doesn't, then they feel frustrated and I can't get in the mood. Well, then I'm never gonna get in the mood and they get distracted and give up too quickly. But I think all of this can be learned as we become experts, as you were saying, in ourselves, you know, and with our partners, one of the reasons why sex can get better with time, because we begin to master it. And when we have that, it can feel wonderful.
SPEAKER_00Yes, practice. I think the word practice, you know, people don't associate it with sex, and yet sex is a skill that we learn like everything else, and it does take practice. And sometimes that's just a completely unreal idea to people. I'll I'll say it out loud and they'll they they'll say, I don't associate sex and practice together. And yet it is a skill, like you're saying that you learn, and that that's that's an important thing for people to hear and know it's true. What what about eroticism within that and maintaining that especially in long-term relationships? I think it's such a big component. What what if you find in your research and how does eroticism work into the Slow state. Or does it?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I definitely think it does. And a lot of couples, you know, couples who maintain really high, if not optimal, levels of sexual satisfaction in long-term relationships, you talk to them, a lot of them have either read books, gone to workshops, been a sex therapist, like they recognize that that they may need to call on some outside help to help them get where they want to be, and they're not afraid or ashamed about that. All couples are gonna go through periods of a little bit of sexual or emotional disconnect in their relationship. But the ones who bounce back from that are the ones who can think outside the box and reach out for help when they need it. Just as someone in any sport might call on a coach to help them perfect a component of their game that's a little bit off. The same thing applies to sex. Like when you say eroticism, and does that apply? What do you mean by eroticism? Because I think that can mean so many different things to different people.
SPEAKER_00I think I when I think of eroticism, I think of engaging my sensuality. I think of the idea that we talked about about staying curious. I think of mystery. I think of mystery in the sense of like someone like me who's in a very long-term relationship, you know each other so well. And the eroticism piece is almost like being curious about new things or, you know, a new a new way to verbalize or not verbalize.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. And I think it's really a mindset thing, you know, people who have more of a gross mindset versus a fixed mindset. And so, yes, generally speaking, couples who have a little bit of a larger sexual menu, if they will, tend to be more satisfied in the long run because they can, you know, mix things up from time to time. But you don't have, I think a lot of couples think in order to keep sex hot, you've got to do all kinds of wild and crazy and kinky things. And you really don't. And if you want to do those things, that's great. More power to you, but it's not the answer for everybody. Having a mindset, and and this is one of the other components I talked about, I talk about in like my online workshop, especially, is this idea of adaptability because in inevitably something is gonna happen that will make sex not go according to plan, or someone has an injury, or the penis doesn't work the exact same way that it used to work, or orgasm doesn't come as easily as it once did. And couples who can say, okay, this is what we're working with now. How can we make some adjustments so that you know we both still really feel fulfilled and satisfied are the ones that tend to do better.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And it's that sense of it is inevitable that your sex life will ebb and flow. This is normal. It's not going to be the way it was at the beginning, your whole relationship. And you're gonna go through times where there is an injury, or there's a health issue, or uh there's a move, or you're you're living a situation. I mean, there's so many things that go on in your lifetime. And I think what I want people to hear is again is what you said, that that expect that that doesn't mean you don't love or care about your partner anymore. It doesn't mean you don't love and care about sex anymore. It's just a normal ebb and flow, and to keep that mindset of allowing for those kind of times and then also taking steps to move through them.
SPEAKER_01Right. Precisely. Like A, expecting them, B, writing them out, maintaining hope that things will get back, and then yes, finally being proactive as a couple, you know, about what you need to do to get back on track. And that's another thing, you know, couples who prioritize sex, who recognize it's important for relationship health tend to do a lot better. You know, I love analogies and I use probably overuse them, but you know, I tell people like, let's say you go to your favorite restaurant and you always order the filet and they're out that night, are you gonna leave the restaurant or are you gonna like think of find something else on the menu that sounds good or try something new? Most likely you'll find something else on the menu, you know. But I think a lot of times for couples when it comes to sex and their favorite thing isn't available for whatever reason, they hop out of bed or get mad. Doesn't have to be that way.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and another point you mentioned, let's circle back to, is talking about it, communicating. Oh, this is like a mantra on this podcast, but it's communicating, you know, learning and learning to communicate when these things happen, but having conversations and ongoing conversations with yourself and with your partner about the challenges or gifts or what you decided you don't enjoy anymore, or what no longer brings you pleasure, or what new thing you discovered does bring you pleasure. Communication, I think, is one of the big keys of making good sex great.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it's huge. Like Peggy Kleinplatz says, you know, couples who have optimal sexual experiences aren't just good communicators. They have their black belt in coming. Oh, I love I love that. You gotta be like really, really, really good communicators. And, you know, I think that means like deep empathy and getting in touch with your emotions, being able to identify your feelings, being able to verbalize those and communicate them to your partner and for them to understand and reflect that back and them and get into like it's a deeper level of communication.
SPEAKER_00We're talking about making good sex great, and we're talking about communication, curiosity, sensuality, maintaining eroticism. Does anything else come to the top of your mind to add into that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the other piece that I talk about in my online workshop is this idea of attunement, learning to tune in to your partner. And when you walk into a room and you can kind of feel the energy in the room, I think again, because of how we live our lives, we're a little bit out of tune. Like so many couples live like two ships passing in the night that they can't really like sense their partner's pulse all the time. And this is almost like that deeper level of communication is being able to communicate without opening your mouth, right? Like that neurosception, like figuring out what how your body is responding to your partner's energy. And that's another skill, if you will, that I think really only comes in couples who've been together for a long time. Like a couple who's been dancing, you know, ballroom dance together for a long period of time, where she knows that when he flicks his wrist a certain way, that that's a signal for her to do a certain kind of spin or step in a certain direction. And so when couples can become really synchronous like that, that it almost feels automatic. That's what I'm talking about when I refer to attunement and you know, to be able to have that during sex, that's what will make it feel almost effortless again. But that only comes with a lot of practice. Like I mentioned before, I had my second baby last year. I can't believe he's almost gonna be a year, but it's like you know, mothers, I think you know, you feel your milk come in even before the baby starts crying, right? Like that's attunement. It is biological, and humans are hardwired to attune to one another, but we just tune out, but it's it's all there, like all the hard wiring is there. We've just gotta activate it.
SPEAKER_00It's all there. We just have to activate it. That's a that is a great way to wrap up this episode. Thank you so much for being with us and sharing your research and expertise. How can my listeners find you and learn more about your work, Emily?
SPEAKER_01Sure. So I'm across all the social media channels: Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, at Dr. Emily Jemia. That's D R Emily Jamia. And um, my website is EmilyJemia.com, and that's where you can find my online workshop. I also have meditations there that people can check out as well that can help address different sexual issues. There's a free sample of the workshop and a money back guarantee because I really believe in it.
SPEAKER_00Wonderful. And I I shared a little bit about the pleasure practice we're doing on the podcast, which is to stop and notice about what delights us every day. Would you be willing to share something that just delights you or brings you pleasure day to day?
SPEAKER_01Oh gosh, I have so many little rituals. My 3 p.m. Reese's cup. Um, you know, my husband usually brings me my coffee in the morning. That's one of our little rituals we share as a couple, being with my kids and just spending time with them. I I really am, I think, a sensual person. And so I have lots of little delights throughout the day.
SPEAKER_00That's a great example and and modeling of what I'd love the community to do is think about maybe a ritual that you could start with perhaps something Emily mentioned or I mentioned or that you've thought about before that really get you in touch with yourself and your body and your senses. So think about what that might be for you. Maybe moving forward, uh kind of learning yourself,
