Permission for Pleasure
A podcast to educate and equip women with the information and confidence they need to express, experience and enjoy their sexuality. Cindy Scharkey RN, BSN, brings her 35+ years of experience as a healthcare professional to open the doors to healthy conversations about sex. This is a community where you can listen and learn to give yourself permission for pleasure. Visit www.cindyscharkey.com for educational blogs and newsletter.
Permission for Pleasure
Keeping it Hot in Long-Term Relationships
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Want to re-eroticize your long-term relationship and keep the fires burning for the long-haul? Somatic Psychologist, and Sex Therapist Dr. Holly Richmond joins us with expert advice for couples. She gets practical with flirting techniques, understanding your sexual template, and the four things healthy couples do to have a thriving relationship in and out of the bedroom.
Dr. Holly Richmond is a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex therapist, and holds a PhD in Somatic Psychology, and is the associate director of Modern Sex Therapy Institutes.
More on these topics:
Pleasure after trauma episode with Holly
Reclaiming Pleasure Book Review
Partner desire discrepancies
Desire styles
How much does frequency matter?
Erotic personas
Erectile dissatisfaction vs Erectile dysfunction
Affection and the 6 second kiss
ORDER my Book: Permission for Pleasure: Tending Your Sexual Garden
JOIN my Newsletter: Good Education for Good Sex
FOLLOW on Instagram @cindyscharkey
VISIT my website and blog
How do we re-eroticize the relationship where both partners are in autonomy?
SPEAKER_03Hello everyone, and welcome to Permission for Pleasure. I'm Cindy Sharkey, your host. Today we're gonna have a conversation directed to long-term couples, but really, this is great for all of us. But I did want to recognize the things that we want couples to know when they've been in a relationship for a while. And so I brought on a perfect guest to join me, Dr. Holly Richman. I adore her. We had her on the podcast in season one, talking about her book Reclaiming Pleasure, and I will link to that in the show notes. I also have a book review of her book. I think so highly of it. And you can find that in the show notes. Today we're gonna talk about things like resilient sex and good enough sex, safety risk, flirting. This is a really tangible practical conversation. It's almost like you're in a therapy session with Holly. Remember to follow the podcast on your listening platform. And if you have come to the podcast newer these days, I want to remind you that my book, Permission for Pleasure and Intersexual Garden, is available in hardcopy and ebook. And you can find the link to those always in the show notes or over on my website. I would love to join you in the pages there of my book. Let's jump into this conversation with Holly Richmond. Holly, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much, Cindy. I always love joining you.
SPEAKER_03I'm delighted to have you back. We recorded years ago. And you are one of my favorite people to talk to about body, sex, and pleasure.
SPEAKER_00I'm just gonna take that in. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03Yes, I appreciate your work so much. And I thought it would be so interesting to have you back on, you know, five years later and talk about long-term couples. Have an episode focus on long-term couples, partners that have been together a while, partners that are past the new relationship energy, which is normal for it to settle down. People actually don't know that, right? And maybe even those who've been partnered for years and years and years. Before we do that, I want you to introduce yourself and your work in the world.
SPEAKER_00Oh, thank you. You and I know each other around my work with Reclaiming Pleasure, which is my dissertation and then book on helping survivors of sexual trauma recover their sexuality. So it's not just recovering from the trauma, but literally what does recovering good, healthy sex and relationships look like? And I have always loved your support there. So I'm just going to say that. So that is certainly a part of my work, but I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I have a PhD in somatic psychology, and I'm a certified sex therapist. So trauma, the body, and sex are all one bubble for me, and I can't really undo that bubble. I love my trauma work. And after 18 years of doing this, I'm really focused right now on couples therapy and desire discrepancies and trying to take a different angle. We've, there are so many great books out there on desire and eroticism, but I don't feel like there's a lot of how. So I'm coming at my clients with a very sex-positive sex therapy. Like I want to get as much in the bedroom with them as I can from the psychological perspective and from the somatic perspective and tell them how. Because I think we're a very well-educated population around psychology these days. So everyone knows the terms and they know what's happening, but the question becomes, how do I change it?
SPEAKER_03Ah there we go. And you know, yeah, I'm gonna just insert here that I highly recommend her resource of reclaiming pleasure. You've heard me talk about it before. So as we focus in on what you're doing now and this idea about, you know, the how. What are the few things where you would say, I for sure wish more people had education and tools around this, these couples you're talking about now. What would that be?
SPEAKER_00You already named one of them, and that is that limerence does not last, nor is it supposed to last. So limerence is the clinical term for new relationship energy. I hope most of your listeners have felt have been in love, right? Had that new relationship energy, that lust, that attraction. All I can do is think about this person. All I want to do is be with this person. That typically lasts anywhere from six months if on the low end. It can last up to five years on the high end. What those longer time frames require, though, is usually distance. Like you'll see the longer limerence when it's a long distance relationship, because as our friend and colleague Esther Perel says, fire needs air. So to keep that fire going, distance helps. And we're gonna talk more about autonomy and healthy degree of codependence versus interdependence and how that is key for couples to either restart, rekindle that energy between them, or find it for the first time.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Okay, let's just go there. Let's just talk about that. Both of those things, because this is a common question that I hear from couples, and you must too. So just go for it. Let's get in it.
SPEAKER_00Yes. So most couples who come to a sex therapist are struggling with a desire discrepancy. Again, that's our word for one partner wants more sex, one partner wants less sex. That is also normal. Two people are never going to have the same sexual template. So, Cindy, you and I have talked about the sexual template and what that is, but it's like your fingerprint for your sexuality. And it's composed of two parts: desire and arousal. So, desire, the psychological process of wanting, arousal, the physiological process of wanting. Desire asks, what do I find sexy? Arousal asks, what turns me on?
SPEAKER_03Okay, wait, say that again. I like the way you're saying that. So desire asks. What do I find sexy? What do I find sexy? What am I attracted to? What pulls me in? What makes me want to have sex? Correct. Arousal asks.
SPEAKER_00What turns me on? What is the physiological process of sensation?
SPEAKER_03What makes my body and brain wake up? Okay, so I love to talk about this piece even alone because people don't have education around this, Ollie. They think it's all in one box and it is not. Okay. So these two pieces, alright. I interrupted you. Move forward. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_00No, no, it's all good. So we've got a sexual template partner A, sexual template, partner B. When the couple comes to me, they usually think they're fighting about frequency. And that is not, I know that's a piece of it. They're like desire discrepancy. Discrepancy means I want more, you want less. We're fighting about frequency. It is so lovely when I can get them both on the same page. Frequency becomes so unimportant when you start having great sex. And the next part of this question that I ask, and I'm just provocative with my couples now because I'm like, these people want to get the work done. Why not? Yeah. Are you having sex worth wanting? Yeah. And you've got to be a little careful with that because no one wants to hurt anyone's feelings. Usually the couples come to that come to me very much love each other. They're like, everything in our life is great except this. Gosh, I hear that a lot. And often it looks like the male partner saying she never wants sex, she can't meet my needs. And then when I get her thinking about desire on arousal, and she's saying, you know what? I want a cheeseburger. And then he says, Here's a taco. And she says, But I want a cheeseburger. And he says, Here's a taco. And then she's like, Well, I don't want this anymore because I've been asking for a damn cheeseburger and he won't give it to me. So I'm just done. And she gets pathologized, right? The low desire, lower desire partner gets pathologized. What the higher desire partner usually isn't doing is really listening and being willing to show up in a different way. And I just want to say this, it's not always that the woman is a lower desire partner.
SPEAKER_03I was just going to say that just met with the woman and we talked about this exact thing. She's like, Where are the people like me? I want more sex, you know, and he doesn't. So uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It goes both ways. Or same-sex partners, like there's just, it's never going to be the same. So you asked me what I wish people knew. It's not the goal to have the same sex drive as your partner. I am very happily married, and my partner's sex drive is like 10 times what mine is. Cindy, another provocative thing I say, and I always lead with, I am not a trad wife. I almost never say no to my partner when he asks for sex. I actually never say no, but here's the catch there. How are we defining sex? So when I say that, people are like, oh, so you have penis and vagina sex every time your partner wants to? 100% no, because I would be having sex every day, a couple of times a day. That is not happening for me. But when Danny, my partner, approaches me and I feel like he wants sex, I'm really asking myself, is he wanting to feel connected to me? Is he wanting to feel desired? Is he wanting to remember who we are from that limerence stage from the beginning, before kids, before work stress, before parent stress? Is he wanting touch? Does this man literally just need touch? Because men especially don't have those close friendships usually where they get the hug like we women do. So what is he asking for? And if he's asking to remember who we are, if he's asking to feel desired, why would I ever say no to him? I can give him a hug. I could maybe give him a hand job, I could maybe give him a blowjob, and sometimes I can have penetrative sex. But I really try not to say no. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03This is interesting because let's just frame this out like you did at the beginning. If you're in a safe relationship and there's there's safety there, and yes, this may not apply for everyone, but I do like this idea of asking the next question of what is it that my partner is asking for when they're asking for sex. I don't think very many people do that, Holly.
SPEAKER_00Because for the lower desire partner, they're in their narrative, and I'm not saying it's wrong, but all he wants is sex. And for the higher desire partner, and let's just say it's a man at this point. If he's a man in his 40s, 50s, 60s, he has not been raised in a world that gives him language for intimacy. All he knows how to do is ask for sex, but what he's asking for is intimacy. It could be both. Like sometimes he wants to have sex so often he wants intimacy and to be validated.
SPEAKER_03It's a it's an interesting way to frame that out. And I think it's could serve couples uh really well and not have there be so much, there's just so much, it's so loaded. This question of I want sex or and do I want sex, and this it's just loaded all the way around.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And Cindy, I love your work. You speak so well about responsive desire. And usually for the lower desire partner, that's where we have to go, right? The higher desire partner has more access to spontaneous desire. They can be the person just moving through the world and desire falls out of the sky, and they're like, I want to have sex. And then the lower desire partner is like, I literally never think about sex. I don't want to have sex, I've got 3,000 things to do. Sex is not on that list. So that partner needs to be put in the bed or the bath or on the couch and be attuned to and usually touched in a way, just even sensually, that gets their body even open to the idea of what am what can I say yes to right now, which is what I was sharing from my perspective as a person with a very full job, two small kids, a mom that needs my attention. I ask myself, what can I offer right now? What can I be open to?
SPEAKER_03That's a beautiful, beautiful response. What can I be open to? And then I mean, this works in the bedroom and in life. Like, what can I give or be open to with gladness, uh, without resentment, right? Yes. I really, yeah, I like that. I like that idea. You talk about resilient sex, Holly. What do you mean by that? And and what would that look like in a relationship? Because this kind of goes together. I'm funneling this down, right? So let's talk about that.
SPEAKER_00So the definition of resilience is the ability to overcome and recover quickly. Think about most couples with a desire discrepancy and how fraught this gets. Exactly what you just talked about. Every time that sex is on the table or they want sex on the table, it just gets so fraught with I don't want to do this because I need this because. So each encounter is just loaded. So if we can expand that definition of sex, if we can start having sex worth wanting, if we can ask the question, what am I open to in this moment? I'm always going to say yes to a hug. I don't know many couples, especially the kind that we see where it's not super high conflict, where they would be like, No, I don't want to give you a hug. Right? Like, yeah, what can I be open to in this moment? And then the hug on a Tuesday and then Wednesday, you know what? Because we were so intimate in that hug, I got fed, you got fed on Wednesday or Thursday. You know what? I'm open to oral sex. And then my gosh, when I have more space over the weekend and work's not breathing down my neck, I'm open to penetration or whatever the kind of peak sexual experiences for every couple. And I don't want to just say penis and vagina because it can look like a million different things. Sure. But that's typical cishet couple. That's what it is.
SPEAKER_03Cisgender, heterosexual couple, heterosexual couple. Yep. I'm I flame I frame out everything for the listeners. So one of the things that I think about when I think about resilient sex, and I know you speak to this, is and I think long-term couples who describe having extraordinary sex, like in Klein Platt's research, describe how they adjust and pivot and make changes. And this is part of the resilient sex piece, yes?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Absolutely. Whether that's because of lifespan, whether that's because of trauma, whether that's um a health issue, a stress in the moment, this is going to change. Our sexuality is not static in any way, and not even our sexual template. There's a little bit of a blueprint to a sexual template that I find with my clients usually sticks. Like if there's something like this turns me on, that usually kind of sticks around, or this really doesn't. But our sexual templates can evolve and they will be different with different partners. So, of course, if you marry your partner when they're 25 and you're still with them when they're 65, in a lot of ways they're a different partner.
SPEAKER_03This is big because, you know, I think people are so hesitant to revisit things as they age through with people and get into longer the relationship. There's fear around how things would be received or how change or evolvement would be welcomed or not welcomed, right? There's a risk there, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And a lot of personal, what's the word I'm looking for? Either shame, embarrassment, frustration around what my body can do now versus what it used to do. So for women, sometimes some issues with the pelvic floor, whether it's hypertonic or hypotonic, for men, that's where we start to see the erectile issues and they want to perform like they did when they're 25. And they know logically this is ridiculous. I'm not gonna perform like I did 30 years ago, but it's really hard to be in a body that doesn't respond how you want it to.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about how people can approach resilient sex in the sense of when things shift and change, or their expectation around things always being perfect, or when a sexual encounter goes awry, right? I mean, maybe not in a funny way where you fall off the bed, but maybe in one of those ways or wow, that that didn't go that well, right? Let's give some framework for how couples can handle that better.
SPEAKER_00Yes. You just use the perfect word to lead us in, and that is perfection. And so if we come back a step from perfection, because no sex is ever going to be perfect, but we still land at performance, still not a great place to be. So what we're trying to get to is presence and pleasure, right? Am I here with you in this moment in my body? And am I feeling some pleasure versus measuring against the porn scene that I saw or the romantic movie that I saw? And I think that's what it's supposed to look like. If we can take those measurements, those um comparisons out, and even with my 30-year-old body versus my 60-year-old body.
SPEAKER_03Yes. And also, well, okay, so what about this idea of good enough sex once in a while? Like everything maybe isn't gonna be, yeah, it's sex worth wanting, but the that good enough that people talk about. I love your opinion about that.
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh, that riles people up like crazy. It really does. Some people are like, I get it, and we're gonna talk that through. And other people are like, I that feels like compromise. I don't want to have good enough sex. But then I'll ask them and I'm like, do you expect sex to be a 10 out of 10 every time? And they're like, no, that's unrealistic too. So I was like, okay, where can we have flexibility here? And Cindy, you've heard me talk about this through the trauma model. Um, I'm working on a nervous system scale, one to 10. That one, two, three, that's collapse. That's our giving up, that's laxity. It's just, it's kind of like hopelessness. That middle section of four to six is our flexibility, that's resilience. That's good enough. That means I can go up, I can go down, no one's freaking out about anything. That eight to ten is rigidity and constriction, and it's got to look this way. That's not gonna work for sex either. So, what we're trying to do is just get to that flexibility, and there's enough sexual goodwill. I always picture like a pretty bucket sitting between a couple, and it's the sexual goodwill bucket. And if it stays at least half full of that couple can have like meh sex, good enough sex. Maybe he didn't get an erection, she wasn't lubricated, they're not into it, their tummy was hurting. I don't know. Like any of the things that happen to us because we are humans and bodies, they just bounce back because that one sexual experience doesn't have to be their whole world.
SPEAKER_03I like that idea of a bucket. I like that. I think that people need permission like this to to have all kinds of experiences and it be okay. I I just I think we have such a fairy tale idea of what sex should I shouldn't look like. So that's a fascinating way to think about it. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So there's this good bucket of sexual goodwill. It needs to stay at least half full and not have every sexual situation so pressurized, which gets us back to like what can I say yes to in the moment? And and thank you for the qualifications. If there's any kind of intimate partner violence, toxicity, things like that, I am not talking about those couples. I am talking about the couples that we mentioned before, where literally everything is good. They love each other, they're best friends, but they're not having sex.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Thank you for that. Let's also then pivot and talk about the need for balance with safety and risk and how that looks for eroticism. It's kind of a big pivot here, but it also goes along. This is important. So I like the way you speak to this. Let's let's talk about this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So the safety piece, which you and I have touched on, and as a trauma therapist, safety to me really means starting with consent, right? So am I agreeing to be here? My definition for sex positivity: all sex is good sex as long as it's consensual and pleasurable. So am I checking the safety box? And do I believe this experience can be pleasurable? The risk component of it comes in differently for everybody. And eroticism really demands this balance of safety and risk because anything that's too safe isn't going to be charged. Anything that's too risky, a lot of people are going to feel like this is not safe. My emotions aren't safe. My body's not safe. Something is just, it's too chaotic. But eroticism really does demand risk. So I'm going to be a little bit more specific about it. If it's too safe, sometimes one partner is in the role of mother. Sometimes one partner is in the role of child. No one wants to have sex with those people. No. Right? So how do we how do we re-eroticize the relationship where both partners are in autonomy? They can be seen for their intradependence with themselves. And then there's an interdependence with the couple that is not codependence. And then how do we eroticize that? So for some couples, that might be let's go away on vacation and have sex somewhere a little bit risky where we could be caught. For other couples, it's going to be let's role play together. For some couples, it's going to be let's read erotica together and talk about it. There are so many ways to bring risk into the couple without it ever feeling unsafe.
SPEAKER_03Good examples. And another way that couples can do this, and I'm going to have you speak to this, is flirting. Because this is one of your areas that you talk about a lot. I think that flirting can bring that little bit of risk. And yet I wonder if couples flirt anymore.
SPEAKER_00It's one of the first things to go. So I think flirting goes out the window. And we know from the Gottman's research that kissing goes out the window. So I wonder if your listeners have had heard about the six-second kiss. Oh, yes. If you want something today to deepen your level of intimacy with your partner, commit to kissing them every day for six seconds. Yep. Yes, the six-second kiss is something great you can try today to bring some intimacy back into your relationship. As far as that erotic energy and re-eroticizing the couple, flirting is a wonderful place to start. And I love the framework that Alain de Botan offers. So, Cindy, it's this the amazing flirt does three things. The first is that they communicate to you that they want to have sex with you. The second is although they're communicating they want to have sex with you, they won't in that moment. And then the third thing, the reason they won't in that moment has nothing to do with you. It's literally about the game of flirting and building, building, what's the word I'm looking for? Anticipation. Building anticipation, letting you know I want you, letting you know I think you're hot, letting you know I think you're interesting, all of those components.
SPEAKER_03It's like building anticipation without expectation.
SPEAKER_00That's a beautiful and concise way to say it. Absolutely. Absolutely. And just to be flirted with, to know that someone is interested in us, and how amazing if that someone is someone we've been married to for 30 years.
SPEAKER_03So the good flirting communicates, I desire you. I don't have an expectation right now. I'm kind of rephrasing. And this is not about you.
SPEAKER_00Right. The reason I'm not acting on something right now has nothing to do with you. What I'm letting you know is that I'm interested and I'm here and I'm available and I'm open.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so can you give like three examples of good flirting? Just to give people a little like jumpstart here.
SPEAKER_00Yes. So one of the ways, and I just hopefully it's okay that I use some personal examples. One of the ways my husband loves to be flirted with is for me to send him pictures or little videos. And those can be sexual or not sexual. That really works for him. That tells him I'm thinking about him, I know what turns him on and gets him in that space of anticipation. So he just appreciates that picture for what it is. So, Cindy, let's say I send the picture through at two o'clock. And at two o'clock, I'm like, yeah, I could definitely have sex later. But then by 8:30, I'm like, hell no, I am not having sex right now. Because I put some of the effort in, Danny's not going to be disappointed every time, right? So if the if there's a no that night, he knows she was still flirting with me. She was thinking about me. That's one way. I want to say also out loud for a lot of us, pictures, videos don't feel like a flirt at all. They feel like a burden. So if you're one of those people where you're like, oh my gosh, my partner, my new date, my wife keeps sending me pictures, and it really makes me feel like it's a burden. And now I have to respond to something, and I don't want to have to do that. That's normal too.
SPEAKER_03Right. Okay. So pictures, video, also flirty touch, don't you think?
SPEAKER_00Yes, absolutely. Flirty touch. I was going to say that one. So affectionate touch without the expectation of sex. Like that right there, that sentence is a female libido healer. So I'll say it one more time. Affectionate touch without the expectation of sex. The difference with the flirty touch is it's a little bit more suggestive and builds anticipation. It's not just nurturing. Hmm. Okay. And then the other thing that feels like a flirt to a lot of people is their partner making plans. Just literally, Saturday night is your night. Don't tell me anything. Just make all of the plans. Tell me what kind of how I need to dress and what time I need to beware.
SPEAKER_03Hmm. Mm-hmm. Somebody taking charge of a plan and then communicating it.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And all of these really boil down to I am thinking about you and what you want and need, not just about myself. Yes. How do I make you feel loved? How do I make you feel desired? I'm just gonna say, going a little bit gendered in my practice, for a lot of men, they just need to feel desired. A lot of women, they're like, I need to feel loved and cherished.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_03And I think sometimes in long-term relationships, that gets sort of watered down. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And in the kind of worst case scenarios, that becomes a vicious cycle. So again, I am gonna go gendered here, and it doesn't always follow the script, but she says, I need to feel loved, cared for, have some emotional intimacy before I can have sex with you. And he says, I need to have sex before I can offer you the emotional intimacy that you're looking for. And there's the rub. Right. And they go around and around and around until someone kind of has to go first, right? And the role of a sex therapist is figuring out how they can both go at the same time. I'm gonna give you this, I'm gonna give you this. How can we meet each other?
SPEAKER_03How can we meet each other? Let's wrap up with the four things you usually say healthy couples do. Yes. I'd love for you to just share these four things that you talk about as what you see healthy couples do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So the first one is active appreciations daily. And I know this sounds fairly trite, but Cindy, you would not believe how many couples don't offer each other an appreciation. Thank you for doing this. I am so happy that you helped me with that. Just an appreciation every day, at least every day, of gratitude for your partner.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Wow. I and you know, I'm just I'm getting a little emotional because my the love of my life was so intentional about that. Well, it's just so much in the bucket, sexual or not, right? It just fills your bucket.
SPEAKER_00It does. It absolutely does. And these can be sexual appreciations as well, right? So I loved the love making we had last night. I loved that sexy picture you sent me. So they can be sexual appreciations as well. The second thing healthy couples do, which is probably the biggest that I'm working on all the time with my couples, is giving each other the benefit of the doubt.
SPEAKER_03Tell me more.
SPEAKER_00We get in stories with our partner about what we think their intentions are. We start building a case against them. We stop listening to understand, we listen to respond. We're in a narrative in our head about who our partner is. If we can step out of that narrative and give our partner the benefit of the doubt and know that any mistakes they make were about mindlessness or misattunement, not maliciousness, it literally changes everything.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that's big.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So it's essentially my partner's not trying to be an ass right now. They are misattuned, they are being mindless, they are distracted by A, B, C, D. They're really not trying to hurt me.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So giving each other the benefit of the doubt. What's the third one?
SPEAKER_00Yep. The third, we already talked about affectionate touch without the expectation of sex. And this goes both ways. This really does. And again, I'm shocked at how many couples don't touch each other on a daily basis. There's just nothing. There's it goes from nothing, and then the higher desire partner is like, now I want to have sex. And the lower desire partner is like, Oh my gosh, I haven't gotten a hug in two weeks.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yeah. Just cannot make that that pivot doesn't work well.
SPEAKER_00It does not at all. So again, uh the power of affectionate touch and what it means for each of the partners, and it's going to mean different things. And then the last one is healthy couples talk about sex. And the sex is a hard thing to talk about. We haven't really been given great scripts or great frameworks for how to do that. I think the younger generation, Cindy, have more knowledge than you and I did, just because we live in, depending on where you live, but I hope we live in a more sex-positive world and we're not kind of, you know, putting sex in a box that lives over here, like it's part of our whole being. But so many couples just don't talk about sex because it's become fraught or because they have sexual shame because of religion or trauma or upbringing. There is no way a couple can be healthy if they are not talking about sex. And I'm even going to say the couple can be asexual. That is still a discussion about the sex we don't want to have.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm. So, all the way around, I mean, this is the thing I want to encourage listeners hearing that is also like talking about sex can is a skill you can learn.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03So these four things are powerful for couples to be healthy. Yes. Why do you think these four things are so powerful?
SPEAKER_00I think they check a lot of boxes. There's emotional resonance, there's interdependence, not codependence. It touch touches on the idea of sexuality in a pretty big way in at least two of those. And up until fairly recently, when people were talking about doing couples therapy, that lived completely separate from sex therapy. And you know what, Cindy, as I said, say this, it still does way too much. Like I cannot imagine being a couples therapist and not talking about sex. Like that literally doesn't make sense to me, and it shouldn't make sense to anybody.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And sex, and I'm thinking also the talking about sex between couples. I can't believe people don't talk about sex as a couple when it's one of the it's like it's somehow separate. We talk about everything else and then not not sex.
SPEAKER_00Right. Because I think too, there's this idea uh it's natural, we're just supposed to know how to do it, it'll figure itself out.
SPEAKER_03And that is a myth that a lot of us swallow down.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, it will not figure itself out.
SPEAKER_03Well, I feel like Holly has given us listeners some really practical things to talk about. This seems like an episode if you're partnered that you could listen to together with your partner and pause as as we go through these different topics that Holly's addressed, and let us help you with this episode to get talking with your partner.
SPEAKER_00I love that. That's a beautiful way to say it. Yes, yes. I mean so much, Cindy.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. Thank you for being with us for all the work you're doing in the world. Tell people how they can find you, Holly.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. So my website is um a place you can come and learn more about my work, and that's just dr h o-l-l-y, r-i-c-h m-o-n-d dot com, drhollyrichmond.com. Or I know so many people find others through Instagram these days, and that's a really easy way to find me as well. You can DM me, and I'm just at Dr. Holly Richmond, D-R Holly Richmond.
SPEAKER_03Friends, thanks for joining Holly and I. I want to encourage you again about those four things that healthy couples do: active appreciations daily, non-sexual touch, in other words, intimate touch without expectation of sex, giving each other the benefit of the doubt and talking about sex. Those powerful things, I'm reminding you again to be intentional with those in your relationships, and certainly keep giving yourself permission for pleasure.
