Permission for Pleasure
A podcast to educate and equip women with the information and confidence they need to express, experience and enjoy their sexuality. Cindy Scharkey RN, BSN, brings her 35+ years of experience as a healthcare professional to open the doors to healthy conversations about sex. This is a community where you can listen and learn to give yourself permission for pleasure. Visit www.cindyscharkey.com for educational blogs and newsletter.
Permission for Pleasure
Purity Culture's Effect on Men
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We talk a lot about the repercussions of purity culture for women, but what about men? This topic is often silenced, creating what sexuality educator Erica Smith calls a “fertile ground for shame.” She joins me to break the taboo, sharing the after effects men frequently encounter.
Erica Smith is an award winning sexuality educator and consultant with 25 years of experience. She developed the Purity Culture Dropout™️ Program to help people learn all of the sex education that they missed growing up in purity culture- sex ed that is accurate, queer inclusive, trauma informed, compassionate, and comprehensive.
More on this topic:
Evolving out of purity culture
Reclaim your arousal mindset
Untangling sexual shame
Masturbation - let’s dig in
Masculinity narratives with Cam Fraser
My letter to young women
Misconceptions men believe about sex
Embodiment and pleasure with Hillary McBride PhD
ORDER my Book: Permission for Pleasure: Tending Your Sexual Garden
JOIN my Newsletter: Good Education for Good Sex
FOLLOW on Instagram @cindyscharkey
VISIT my website and blog
Folks are like, no, this is just not a thing that's talked about. And then that is fertile grounds for shame.
SPEAKER_00Hello friends. Welcome to Permission for Pleasure. I'm Cindy Sharkey, your host. I'm delighted you're here. You are in for a really nourishing conversation with Erica Smith around purity culture and the fallout of purity culture, especially for men and people partnered with men in this situation. We talk about shame and pornography and body image, and we tried to hit on a lot of topics briefly so that you could continue investigating for yourself. I hope you find this conversation really helpful and educational. I'm glad you're here. Don't forget to follow the podcast on your listening platform. And I want to invite you to sign up for my newsletter, Good Education for Good Sex. We talk a lot about why sex education is needed in this episode. And I want you to know that's what my newsletter is about: providing bite-sized education for you. So rather than Googling, you can click on the various blogs or topics that you're interested in that come in the newsletter. You can sign up at the link in the show notes. So, friends, let's welcome Erica to the show.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much, Cindy. I'm happy to be here today.
SPEAKER_00Delighted to have you on the show. I have followed you for quite some time in your work. But maybe you're new to some of my listeners. So will you just share what you do and your work in the world? Something about you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, sure. So I have been a sex educator for my whole career. Which means that I started doing the work in college and I've now been at it for 25 years. And my focus in sex education since about 2019 has been helping people who were raised in purity culture or high control religion that had a lot of repressive roles and scary teachings around sexuality. So I have created a program called Purity Culture Dropout. And under that program, I do individual sessions, group work, public classes, support groups, and I have a private online community as well. That is for people who are trying to embrace a healthier view of their sexuality after being harmed by religion.
SPEAKER_00And you yourself did not grow up in purity culture. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_01That is correct. I always say I am from a family that we were casually Christian. You know, we didn't go to church all the time. We went to church on holidays. And I grew up with the idea of a loving God that wasn't scary. And I realize that is quite different from what most of my clients experience. Yeah, I did not have the experience of growing up in purity culture. I had a family that was pretty open and matter-of-fact about discussing sex and sexual matters. I'm very grateful that that was my experience.
SPEAKER_00I'm so happy for you. And I don't hear that very often. I know. Would you describe purity culture from your perspective? Yeah. Having not grown up in purity culture, but your work in it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a big question. So I'm going to break it down in a few pieces. So purity culture is common in all major world religions, in the most fundamentalist versions of those religions. And it's all about strict rules around sexuality and sexual behavior that usually fall on women to carry out. So the onus is on a woman's purity, on a woman's virginity, and there's a lot of blame on women for being sexually tempting in any way. And mostly that just means existing. So the purity culture ideals are not new. They've been around as long as religions have been around. But what I typically focus on is the way that it was shared in American culture for young people in the 90s and 2000s, and still today, there are new versions of it on TikTok. But the purity culture movement sprung up in the 90s, generally is thought to be possibly in response to HIV, but also in response to a growing rise of the Christian right in America. And so the purity movement had an industry around it. Like young people were encouraged to take purity pledges, to wear purity rings. And it was even tied into like a idea of like this is how we make America better, basically, by like adhering to these uh rules around sexuality. And purity culture is applied differently for different people. Um, some people I work with were raised in religions that they describe as pretty extreme cults. Other people maybe got a lighter flavor of it, um, maybe heard some things in youth group, but the common teachings are that a woman's virginity is her highest worth, and that if you do anything to even kiss or hold hands, you could be dishonoring your future husband. And then so women are taught that they're responsible for the desires of others, so that if someone looks at them, hits on them, says that they're struggling with lustful thoughts, it's the woman's fault for just inspiring those thoughts. Yes. And then for men, it's also not a picnic, it's not a walk in the park. Like, sure, they're given more uh leeway, but men who were raised in purity culture often have been told that their minds and their desires are very dangerous and are gonna lead them down a dark path. So a lot of the men I work with heard messages that like masturbation was a terrible sin, that thinking of a woman in a sexual manner was a terrible sin. And they would, you know, sometimes teach young men to be accountable for every sexual thought or feeling they have, and to, of course, save that all for marriage, which you and I both know, trying to suppress all sexual thoughts and urges, which are such a natural human thing, you can't really do that without harm. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I would say, you know, I mean, we're gonna get to the shame piece because this is so huge in this community. But what I want to tell you, listeners, is we've had conversations around purity culture with Britt Barron, with a couple other episodes where we've directly related it, especially around women. And I thought this time it would be really helpful to have a conversation with Erica around men and how they come out of these teachings and then what happens in relationships and adulthood, because I keep running up against women who come for consults who are partnered with men coming out of this kind of framework, and the issues are significant. And I wanted to help couples that are partnered together or men that listen to the podcast have some framework and some education around this, and so I'm just so glad you could join me because this is what you do, and this is what you you're passionate about, and I think there can be so much change and evolving with the right kind of education and support.
SPEAKER_01Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Do you agree? I do. Yeah, so these rigid like gender roles, right? As men as aggressors, and you can't control the urges, you say, and women should be compliant, and you know, sex is for men, and women don't like sex. I mean, there is so much happening here. Yep. What would you say is I don't know, maybe the first few things that come to your mind of the mantras or the teaching that affect men the most?
SPEAKER_01I hear from men that they were often made to feel like some sort of out-of-control monster just for thinking about sex. And we're talking like beginning in adolescence at a time when we both know that the sexual development of a young person involves curiosity and it involves learning about their body, and that can involve masturbating, becoming acquainted with sexual thoughts, like things that are very healthy and normal, absolutely. Um, but in some of these purity culture teachings that men receive, um, it is considered a sin to even have a sexual thought or feeling. So it's not just about acting on them, it's about it is also a sin to think these things. So, what I hear from a lot of guys is that they learned early on and pretty quickly to there's some of them that as an outsider to purity culture sound so ridiculous, but one of the things is that they learn how to bounce their eyes. And that means, you know, if a man would look at a woman and and just note her as attractive, immediately has to make himself not look at her. Bounce his eyes away. Bounce his eyes away.
SPEAKER_00I'm trying to I'm describing what she's doing, listeners, because then I don't do video. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, just bounce his eyes away. Um, and so when I end up working with some men, they're like, I don't even know how to let myself feel attracted to a woman because bouncing my eyes was something that was really taught to me and really trained myself to do it. Train myself to do that. Another thing is, I mean, the masturbation, not masturbating, as if like it's dishonoring God. And so these are anecdotal stories, but some of the men I've worked with were even in accountability groups where they could share with their peers did you masturbate? Did you find a woman attractive this week? Did you see anything that caused lust in your heart this week? So those are some of the big ones that I hear over and over. And of course, compounding that is just a lack of actual information about sex and how their bodies work. So it's like desire is really, really um, what's the word I'm looking for? Like stigmatized, like don't feel desire until you are married, and then everything just becomes a switch, exactly.
SPEAKER_00Step your fingers, and all will be great.
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm. Yep. So it's like no desire, no, don't give in to the temptation of your thoughts. You don't want to masturbate, you don't want to find women attractive, and you certainly don't want to, you know, even touch any of these behaviors until you are married.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then what happens is all these normal things that our body and mind are going through, we learn to suppress that. I mean, I would find this with women, just the normal arousal and desire, they have a hard time recognizing that because they had to be the gatekeeper of that. And so, in the flip side of this, too, if men are taught not to recognize arousal, allow it, recognize desire, allow it. I'm thinking like they get into a relationship and then you don't just get to turn that on. No.
SPEAKER_01No, none of those teachings, you know, even if intellectually they're like, okay, now I'm in a place that I can do this, they have absorbed these teachings for sometimes decades, and it's really hard to, you know, to let your body understand that it's now an okay thing to do. Um, I was also just thinking that I often meet men who are terrified of expressing their attraction to women because that they've been taught that anytime they feel desire for a woman, they're disrespecting her. That to find a woman sexually pleasing or to find a woman attractive is to automatically be disrespectful. So, you know, I start working with these men who are lovely people with great intentions, but often they're like, is it wrong to how do I hit on a woman? How do I tell her, like, how do I approach someone? Because they're just given this message that to initiate any sort of sexual or romantic encounter is ultimately a sin that is causing the woman to sin as well. So it's just like, these are some of the basics that if you're not growing up in the world of this messaging, like you might have an easier time like approaching a woman and asking her out because you're not thinking like this is so dangerous.
SPEAKER_00And I'm thinking about some women I've worked with partnered with men coming out of purity culture, and they just really struggle to help their partner learn how to allow sexuality, basically. I mean, embracing their sexuality. It's because this isn't a switch you can just flip, right? Yeah, and also when they're it's really hard for people coming out of purity culture, I believe, to talk about sex.
SPEAKER_01It is so difficult.
SPEAKER_00They have no practice, they have no practice around it.
SPEAKER_01No. One of the questions I ask people before we work together is do you have anyone in your life that you talk to about sex, like a therapist or maybe one of your best friends? And some people are like a little bit, yeah, they might have one person, but other folks are like, no, this is just not a thing that's talked about. And then that is fertile grounds for shame, as we know, when we don't talk about stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And I do think shame is well, it's such a terrible compass, you know, and yet I can't remember if it was Matthias or who I had on the phone. Oh, Matthias Roberts. I'm gonna have to reference that episode. I literally got off the conversation with him and just wept. Oh he speaks so clearly to this shame piece.
SPEAKER_01His book is great, beyond shame.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. So I'll reference that in the show notes, but I'm thinking of him saying, like, where there's sex, there's shame. And a lot of people don't recognize that that is a piece, and then what to do with that. How do you encourage people with that piece, that shame piece?
SPEAKER_01Oh, it's this is big.
SPEAKER_00This is a big question.
SPEAKER_01Shame is one of those things that you know, we I always say to people, I wish I could snap my fingers or have a magic solution for you, but battling the shame is a long game. It's something that you're gonna be coming up against and you've got to like attack from many sides. So, I mean, there are folks that I work with for whom religious trauma is a piece. And in that situation, I think that it is really helpful to work with a therapist. I think my work is very complementary to therapy, but as I'm not a clinician, I cannot do the sort of work that a trauma therapist can do around shame. And a lot of times for people who were given the version of Christianity where they learn that like your earthly body doesn't matter. You are ultimately just a vessel, and you know, you gotta worry about getting to heaven, you know, neck and below doesn't matter. That is some re it is really hard to reconnect the mind and body when you've been taught all your life to disconnect them. So I would say working with a therapist, especially one that can talk about the mind-body connection and trauma, can be hugely important. And then another angle is yes, talking about it more. Even just having conversations with me. It's like we're talking about a topic that you've never talked about, and it's gonna start to unlodge some things. And I've seen people go and make great, incredible, brave moves when they just start chipping away at it, and then it's like, oh, I I brought this up with my brother, and it turns out he feels the same way and he had the same experiences. Or I reached out to my friend from youth group, and we talked about this too. It can be so, yeah, just really just dis attack the shame from many sides, but it it starts small, even with just being willing to talk about sexuality.
SPEAKER_00I appreciate the idea around you know, dismantling the shame is is a long game. Yeah. I mean, you said that, and I went, that's exactly right. It is a long game, and the other piece you're bringing here, which is so true, is shame loves the dark. It loves to just live in the dark in our thoughts, right? Yeah, and when we bring it out into the light, if we talk to a friend or a therapist or work with someone, it just gives a whole different perspective outside of our dark own mind.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it just starts to lose its power, and that is a great place to start.
SPEAKER_00I also have had women come to me that are partnered with men coming out of this, and they just really struggle about variety or toys in the bedroom or anything outside of what they term vanilla. I have my quotes up, but any kind of sprinkles or just different, anything different is wrong in their mind, and so they struggle, and this can be either, whoever, anyone. But I want to bring this up because if your partner was someone who struggles with that, they they have their preferences, yeah, and that can be that's perfectly okay. That's that's right on, but to have that wall of right and wrong around things that are just pleasurable things, uh-huh. Yeah, I sometimes this is where I just how to help someone in that kind of scenario. Yeah, I wonder if you run up against that.
SPEAKER_01For sure. And I think this comes to a it goes back to our personal values. And one of the things that I do with people is that I think is kind of a an important starting point is to examine these are the things you were taught, but I want to know what do you believe, and do you know why you believe those things? So if somebody says, I'm just really uncomfortable with using toys in the bedroom, when I would ask them, like, can you tell me what you learned about that? Can you tell me what the idea of using toys brings up for you? And you know, some people are like, well, it's unnatural or it's you know, cheating or whatever, you know, whatever their answer is gonna be, which is of course very, very valid for them. I just kind of want to explore and challenge that a little bit. Like, you know, I think of, and I'm guessing you're on the same page, Cindy, is like toys are an aid. Toys are something that they're a helper in the bedroom. They're not another party, they're not a replacement. Yeah, they're not a replacement for your partner. They are a collaborative thing that you're doing together. And so I think it can be really helpful to start, yeah, sort of pulling those threads of like, what did you learn and why do you why do you think that? And do you have like evidence that that this is true, or is it something that just kind of feels true? And then also share anecdotes about all kinds of folks that use toys in the bedroom. They're not just for queer people. Plenty of straight men and women enjoy toys in the bedroom. It doesn't take away from your masculinity, it doesn't take away from the you know ability that you have to connect with your partner. I think it can aid in the connection. And it's yeah, toys aren't a competition, they're on your side, basically.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and that's one example. You know, Erica, I think that shame is a big conversation, and we could probably just have more and more um con you know, more and more, just whole episodes on this. And I think what you said, and I remember I framed this out in my book in the sense of like who's coloring the lines that you're inside of, like who you know, sometimes we live in boxes where someone else colored the lines. And as you come into adulthood and as you evolve and change, it's I just think it's so important for people to sit down, like you said, and say, Where did this come from? Is this still true? For me, do I still believe this? Yeah. And if not, I'm not gonna stay within those colored lines. I'm gonna color my own.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00This is such good, healthy practices to do throughout our lives.
SPEAKER_01Right. Examining your values, knowing that you are allowed to have input. You know, it's not just many of the people that that I encounter that I'm sure you do too, were given these ideas, whether it was from their family or their religious community or their friend group, or just from pop culture in general. I mean, we know there's plenty of terribly shitty ideas and portrayals of sex in media. So yeah, just think about is this true for you? Do you value this? Is this something that you still believe, or something that with evidence and life experience you have a different perspective on?
SPEAKER_00Sure, sure. And you brought up being shut down from their bodies and this the body image piece. And I think this is really big for all of us. Yeah. This sense of somehow just living in our heads, and that yeah, what you said below the the neck and below doesn't matter. And yet, I mean, I personally have been on such a journey over the last 10 years of embodiment, and my the listeners know this because I talk about it all the time. I don't know if I would even be surviving without the work I've done around that and learning to live in my body and listen to her, yeah, what she has to say, and pay attention to the sensations she feels. And I just think that a lot of men they think that's not a masculine way to be. I have that in quotes. Of course, I would love people to listen to the Cam Fraser episodes because I love this. Cam is great. So beautifully, and and one of his episodes with me is like top five episodes. I mean, people, men want to hear a different narrative because the one they're living within is not working for them.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. I think it's almost an elephant in the room to not address the current masculinity musings that we're seeing in this country. The idea that there is like one way to be masculine, and that is it has gone so far into like ridiculous territory where there are there are, especially in the more conservative evangelical world, there are preachers out there saying that it's unmanly to like stay at home with your kids, you know, it's it's like that's real extreme, but we're getting this nationalistic rhetoric now about like being a real man. And the teachings about sexuality that go with that are purity culture teachings, like that you have to be, you know, the masculine virile in charge one, and that that you can't be sensitive and loving and caring. And what you said, like be in your body to to have your own feelings. And I want to bring up a topic that's pornography. Loaded topic, huge topic. We could dissect it for hours, I know. But one of the huge issues for a lot of the men I work with is that the idea of finding anything sexually arousing or engaging with their sexual arousal is so demonized that watching pornography is one of the most forbidden taboo things. Yet you have a lot of men who were raised with this messaging who do watch pornography and then feel really ashamed about it. And that can contribute to like a compulsive viewing of it, and then those men are more likely to self-identify as addicts, as addicted to pornography. I know Cam Fraser talks about this too. I think it's a really important topic, but there's research that shows men who report themselves as having a problem with pornography viewing don't tend to view it more than the average person, but they were given messages that viewing it is really, really harmful. And a lot of that is the religious shame piece.
SPEAKER_00And the questions I got when I put it out on IG saying you and I were going to be meeting, every question I got was around porn usage.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_00Infidelity, porn usage, and this habitual hiding and dishonesty, you know, over time that is really difficult to change or dress or come to a different place when in a relationship, and then this is such a big topic, and there's so much around it. So I'm really glad you brought it up. I hadn't quite got there, but that is all the questions that came in were around this because there's so much activation around it for men and for men partnered with anyone.
SPEAKER_01True, absolutely. I did an entire class for I called it pornography conversation for purity culture dropouts. It's one of my public classes that folks can go to my website and find. But in that class, I just wanted to give people more nuanced conversation about pornography than they get from the church. And that includes some information about like the history of erotic material. How long have people been making it and engaging with it? The answer is forever. Every time humans developed a new technology, one of the first things they did with the technology was create erotic images or erotic writing. When they developed the telephone, you know, people were having erotic phone calls. Like that's it's not a new invention. Of course, the way that pornography is hyper-available to everyone is a new thing. And certainly the variety of it is a new thing. But, you know, I wanted to tell people this is the history of it. This is also some statistics about who's watching it. And it does include lots of women.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01Here is some history of the industry. Here is some information about people's viewing habits, why people watch pornography, why people are interested in erotic images. And I also wanted to examine where did the narrative come from? That it is a public health crisis that is literally changing your brain chemistry, because those things are not backed by science. They were ideas that were pushed by churches and religious organizations. And I almost feel like a conspiracy theorist when I say that because it is so not a well-known fact, but it is something you can look back at when this conversation around pornography is so dangerous began to grow. And there are some organizations that intentionally got together and decided like it's a public health crisis, this is our angle, and we're gonna put that out there that it's like one of the worst things facing young people today. And I do want to note that like I'm not saying it's there can't be problematic viewing habits or problematic content. I understand and acknowledge all of that, but I fear that when people are just taught viewing it as the worst thing you can do, that fuels the shame, which then fuels the viewing. And then you start keeping secrets from your partner, and then you have men and women who are in deep marital crisis because of it. And that's something that I feel like is fueled by this religious conversation around pornography. I think it is more harmful than it is helpful.
SPEAKER_00Well, an intro, you know, on this podcast, a thousand times I've said, you know, porn is not good sex ed. It's not. So I'm you know, it's it's terrible sex ed. So my the other piece to this, you know, for me as an educator is that because people are taught that, you know, porn is your worst enemy, but they're not taught that it's not real. Yeah. They come away having a lot of education from this entertainment and then bringing and then no discussion around it because it's hidden and not talked about. So then they come to sex with all of that, right? I mean, it just breaks my heart because I hear this over and over and over again. You have the wrong education because you're watching entertainment, right? It's bad and you're wrong, and you're shamed, and you're a terrible person, so to speak, and then it doesn't get talked about, it's just more silence, more shame, and then like you said, it comes up and it blows up relationships over and over and over again.
SPEAKER_01And it is just such a deeply complex topic. It is the most controversial thing I speak on because people get very activated. Because, you know, if you've been taught for your whole life that there's nothing positive about it, especially that if you've been taught that it is always disrespectful to women, that all of the women involved in the production are essentially being forced and trafficked and harmed, that of course sounds horrible. Nobody's in favor of that. But I think it's important to also teach folks that not all pornography is created equally. There are intentionally ethically created movies by people that are enthusiastic about being there. And I teach people how to discern, like how to find that stuff, how to find stuff that you know that like the person that created this did the so of her own volition and she wants to be there. You know, so you don't have to fear that you're watching someone be exploited by another person, but they're like, hey, I'm making sexualized content and I'm doing it because I am consenting to it. So that is a big piece that I think is is important too.
SPEAKER_00Yes. I bring this up and people are like, wait, what? All porn is not created equal. So if free access, porn is one thing, and ethically created not free access, you know, is another. And I like that you're educating people about all that's out there because let's be honest, and like you said, like it's just it's pervasively watched. I mean, it's it's so many are watching porn and engage with it. And if they don't have any education around how it's produced or offered, you know, then they're not making really educated choices about what they're watching.
SPEAKER_01And if they're being fueled by shame, they're probably gonna Google the quickest thing they find, put it on, turn it off immediately. Whereas if you feel like, okay, I'm sitting down to watch something and I know what I'm doing and I'm fine with this, then you can take the time to select a more ethical source or pay for it or subscribe to someone's OnlyFans. Like that's something I often recommend because the creators are the producers, are the people showing you the content they want you to show. Yeah. So it is such a big topic. I'm like, I don't even know where to go with this.
SPEAKER_00Sure, sure. Yeah. And I'm thinking, okay, you have this whole course you offer. And what is your feedback from people who take that specific course? Yeah. Maybe tell me one or two things that people come away with.
SPEAKER_01With the pornography conversation, I would love to share that. I actually I can look up and read you something specific because I included it on my website, actually. So somebody said, I loved the porn for Purity Culture Dropouts webinar. Thank you. It truly helped me release so much anxiety. Since leaving religion, my sexual ethic has evolved so much, but this topic has been one piece of the puzzle that I was not sure what to do with. My church was obsessed with anti-porn talks, addiction model, religious counseling, etc. The messaging was so shameful, and I remember being terrified. I can honestly say that I feel so much lighter after attending your class. Education is empowering and it helps heal old wounds. And that is typical of the feedback. People being like, no one ever told me that. No one ever shared this stuff. I didn't realize the narrative surrounding the idea that porn changes your brain isn't scientifically accurate. So yeah, it's one of my favorite things to talk about. I even do a university lecture regularly, um, every semester at a class at Temple University to talk about this.
SPEAKER_00Love to hear that. And I do think education is empowering. And this is the thing, friends, if you're listening and you have maybe a different opinion or you come from a different place. I think what we're trying to, I mean, I'm pretty sure Erica's on the same page with me as because she's said it a couple times is we want you to investigate for yourself.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00We want you to decide for yourself, get education for yourself to be empowered and release whatever shame you might have, and then make decisions around your porn usage or toys or whatever these various topics we're just touching the surface on. Then you make those choices as an adult with the education you have that are right for you.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. I mean, you just basically spelled out my entire mantra as a sex educator, is like I have access to a lot of knowledge about a lot of different sexuality topics, and I will share it with you, and I will also give you a space in which to talk about these things, but you make decisions about your own life, which is so different from purity culture, in which you're told you have to do this, you have to do this. I'm like, you decide. Bodily autonomy is, I am super in favor of you making decisions that are best for you and your partner. I'm not gonna tell you use toys. I'm not gonna tell you, you know, watch porn. Like, if you decide pornography has no place in your life, that is your decision. If you decide that it is something that you are more comfortable watching with a partner, that is your decision. Ultimately, you know, you're the one that has to gather the information, assess it, and live according to what feels right for you. And I feel that way even when I'm I've been a sex educator for teenagers for a long time. And I even want teens to make their own decisions. I'm like, I will give you all of the info you need to make the healthiest, best decisions you can, but I'm not gonna be there in the moment. So but I trust you to make the decision that's right for you.
SPEAKER_00So if you are a parent listening, and you know I have a whole parent workshop on you know being a sex educator in your home, because I feel so strongly about this, is these kinds of conversations around porn and our bodies and masturbation and you know, arousal, normal arousal, these conversations are so important for caregivers to be having with their children. And early before they get to that stage, so often there we get so overwhelmed, it's like, oh, it's just so much. I'm like, you only need to stay one chapter ahead of where your oldest child is. That's a great line. You don't have to know everything right now. I feel so strongly that if you're listening as a parent, and you do you see how when we hide and silence sexuality, our bodies, pleasure, it brings shame. Yeah, it does not bring freedom, and it does not bring healthy choices for ourselves.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, and it has repercussions well into adulthood. You know, you we probably both talk to people. I mean, I work with clients in their 60s, I've had clients in their 70s. You know, these aren't things that go away just because you get older. Like when you really learn that sex is scary and shameful and nobody talks about it in your household, that creates a certain dynamic that you then have to work through and overcome as an adult. Are you familiar with Dr. Tina Shermer Sellers? I love her so much and her work. But Dr. Tina, I think one of the important things that she has taught is that when people do grow up with extreme fear and shame and misinformation around sex in adulthood, or not even just in adulthood, but in their adolescence and adulthood, sometimes they exhibit the same behaviors as people who experience childhood sexual abuse. What she's saying is that their natural healthy sexual development was interrupted by this terrorizing and terrifying message about sexuality. And then so they do things in adulthood like avoid sex, are scared of it, don't know how to talk about it, freeze. It's, you know, her observation from working with people over decades. And I think it's such an important thing for people to know. And often when I share that, folks are like, oh my God, that makes so much sense because I wondered why I was like this. And I didn't think that it could possibly just be purity culture.
SPEAKER_00Hmm. Wow. Well, this is just the tip of the iceberg, friends. I mean, there's a lot of conversation we could have around this, but I hope that in listening to Erica and this conversation, maybe it makes you curious about your own upbringing or you bringing up littles. Or as you're an adult, what are the things that are inside that box that you perhaps want to examine who drew the lines, like I talked about for yourself, deciding how to draw those to be in congruency with what you believe and think and know now. So, Erica, thank you so much for being with us.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. This was such an easy topic to just go on and on about. So, anytime.
SPEAKER_00Tell people how they can find you and the things we've talked about, the best way to connect with you.
SPEAKER_01Sure. My website is Purity Culture Dropout.com, which is fairly easy to remember. But also if you Google Erica Smith's sex education, it I'll come up. The website is where you can find out more about ways we could work together or how to access or purchase any of my recorded classes or the sexual values workbook that I developed.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. And that's also where they'll find the webinar on porn that you've been referencing.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Yep. It's called a porn conversation for purity culture dropouts.
SPEAKER_00There you go. Beautiful. On this podcast, we like to ask guests to share a delight. And this season we're sharing sensual delight, something that brings you delight with your senses.
SPEAKER_01I love this question. I am somebody that loves to be outdoors and I love the summer. And I live in the Northeast. So I live I grew up in the mountains of Pennsylvania that are very like lush and humid. And I still live in Pennsylvania. So I love summers in Pennsylvania. Even the hot, humid, like we're having a humid day right now, and I'm just, I don't know. I just love to sit outside, to feel, to look at all the green, to be surrounded by trees. Yeah, summer's my favorite season. I know that folks who live in different parts of the country would not agree. But for me personally, like summer is also such a yeah, it's a very sensual season. So that's what I've been really enjoying.
SPEAKER_00Beautiful. I'm an outdoor lover too. Nature is my happy place. Well, friends, thanks so much for tuning in today. And guess what I want to say as we wrap up is you have permission to investigate who drew the lines and how to draw your own as you keep giving yourself permission for pleasure.
