Permission for Pleasure
A podcast to educate and equip women with the information and confidence they need to express, experience and enjoy their sexuality. Cindy Scharkey RN, BSN, brings her 35+ years of experience as a healthcare professional to open the doors to healthy conversations about sex. This is a community where you can listen and learn to give yourself permission for pleasure. Visit www.cindyscharkey.com for educational blogs and newsletter.
Permission for Pleasure
Finding Intimacy During Infertility or After Miscarriage
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Miscarriage or infertility is often the first medical crisis young couples face and finding intimacy through these times can pose some unique challenges. Dr. Jacqueline Sherman shares her personal story as well as specific ideas to help couples navigate the journey. You'll learn ways to connect with your feelings, your partner, and tips to reframe your sex life for more intimacy and connection.
Dr. Jacqueline Sherman is a Licensed Clinical Psychologist and Certified Intimacy and Relationship Coach. www.drjac.co
Learn more about these topics
Mindfulness
Book Review: Better Sex Through Mindfulness
Talking with a partner about sex
Pleasurable Touch Practice
ORDER my Book: Permission for Pleasure: Tending Your Sexual Garden
JOIN my Newsletter: Good Education for Good Sex
FOLLOW on Instagram @cindyscharkey
VISIT my website and blog
And sometimes we'll hear like sexual wellness like off in the corner, like you mentioned as like something else. What it really is, it's under the umbrella of health and wellness and being a human.
SPEAKER_01Welcome to Permission for Pleasure. I'm Cindy Sharky, your host. I'm delighted you're here. And I'm loving so many of you are coming over to my newsletter community, Good Education for Good Sex. And if you'd like to join us there for more curated sex education like you get on this podcast, you can find the link in the show notes to join us. Today's conversation here on the podcast is with Dr. Jacqueline Sherman. And we'll be talking about navigating the challenges to intimacy that can come with infertility, miscarriage, and loss. Before we jump in as a nurse, I want to let you know just how common miscarriage really is. It may be one of those things that's not talked about a lot, but 10 to 20 percent of known pregnancies end in spontaneous miscarriage before the 20th week. The majority of those are before the 12th week or in the first trimester. You'll hear Dr. Jack refer to miscarriage as a hidden common experience. I think that's true. And a word about the realities of the fertility journey. Studies suggest that after one year of having unprotected sex, 12 to 15% of couples are unable to conceive. After two years, 10% of couples still have not had a life-born baby. This conversation today is really needed. I hope it serves you well. It's both hopeful and helpful talking all about intimacy and sexual wellness. Dr. Jack, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here.
SPEAKER_01I'm delighted to have you. And I just love what you're doing on your platform and with your work. I wonder if you might just share with the listeners a little bit about you and your work in the world.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thank you. So I am a licensed political psychologist as well as a certified intimacy and relationship coach. And I love the work that I do. I recently opened up a coaching practice called Your Exceptional Sensuality Center. And I'm really, really excited about being able to work with couples and individuals in that practice. And so what I specialize in is helping women who are wanting to have better sex and intimacy in their relationships. And my particular area of expertise is working with women who's experienced miscarriages, pregnancy loss, or fertility issues. I particularly connect with this population very deeply and feel that intimacy is something that's overlooked among this population. And I think it's very, very important that we focus on it, especially given the divorce rates that are higher among the population of families that are struggling with fertility.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yes. And I I love that you're focusing in this area because there is such a need. There is such a need. And I I would love to just start with talking about this infertility path for how that is so challenging for couples in their sexual relationship and what you found working with couples and the challenges that come with that. All the years I worked as a GYN, you know, back office nurse. There's so much silence around this topic and around just the sexual relationship when you're coping with infertility.
SPEAKER_00I most definitely find it to be so. I don't I don't think you could have said it any better. I think it's very much overlooked. And I have compassion with the reason why it is, because you know, there's there's other things that are a focus at that particular point, right? And so when a family is trying to come together and going through that reproductive journey and are facing challenges, a lot of times that becomes the focus, right? Um, creating a child becomes the medical focus. And so it's very understandable that all the support that they're receiving from their community, from their healthcare providers is focused on let's get you pregnant. The relationship becomes a part of the back burner, which is unfortunate, but it's understandable, right? And oftentimes with couples, fertility challenges or infertility is the first medical crisis that they'll that they will experience. So from a psychological standpoint, it is very heavy. It's really, really difficult to deal with, especially if individuals are, you know, not engaging in self-care, not you know, working on their relationship, coming together and communicating well, having a really difficult conversation, utilizing their support, taking breaks from, talking about having a baby, because it can really, for a lot of people that I've spoken with who have had these experiences, it can become, you know, their entire world. I'll never forget one couple that uh I met with. One of the partners said, you know, I really want you to remember that I want you in this relationship more than a baby. Because it had become all consuming. That's where a lot of people are, but they're afraid to bring that up because again, they're in the middle of a medical crisis. And so a lot of times people will feel, well, how dare am I to express my needs? Um, that I need you emotionally or physically when we have such a big crisis that's going on that we're trying to navigate and work through.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that makes complete sense to me. What I've heard from women that I've talked with and walked through the path with is just that sex very much becomes a you know like a means to the end, right? Um, almost a chore, perhaps. That doesn't feel very connecting nor sexy. I think also that idea that people have around the spontaneity in sex, you know, just the the cue and the scripts of that sex would be not spontaneous. You know, we talk a lot about this on the show, but uh, you know, when you're in a fertility journey, it takes the spontaneousness completely out of the picture for people. And and that and that can be a little bit challenging.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. I do think that the challenges are most definitely there. One of the things that I often encourage couples to do is two things. One is to really expand in in this moment in time. I think couples should do this in general, generally speaking, but particularly with this moment in time, really expand what sex means to you. Because sometimes we really have this narrative that's limiting our ability to experience pleasure and connection. Um, so for some people, if if they equate sex to, you know, penis and vagina or sex is oral sex, you know, can we expand that? What else feels good to you that you can engage in with your partner that, you know, healthcare professionals don't have anything to do with, right? You can do this outside of, you know, what has been scripted to you in terms of when to engage and when not to engage, because it can get really intricate in terms of the details when you're on the fertility journey. There's times where you know you're not supposed to have sex or you're supposed to have sex this time. And so it can just become really, really challenging. And so I offer couples a reframe, which is how can we in this moment um really reset what intimacy looks like in your relationships? Um, not that what it looked like before was wrong, but you're in a different season and you can really expand that definition and have it include a lot more things. And so this usually will lead to novelty and trying new things and explore erogenous zones that they've never explored, using their sensuality in ways that they maybe never have to feel physically connected as well as more emotionally connected.
SPEAKER_01Well, I love every single bit of that. Thank you. And I I I think that this idea, you know, Dr. Jack, is exactly what I'm trying to also encourage any person, wherever they are in their their sexuality and journey, of just, you know, excavating these scripts around what our intimacy and connection and sex looks like and expanding it because it is so much more.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yeah, absolutely. It really is. Um, and and you know, we, you know, again, thinking about the compassion that we can give all of ourselves, we haven't been taught our education when it comes to sex has been very limited. A lot of times people are getting that education from porn, and we know that that's not realistic. Porn is a great tool for entertainment, but it's like watching a karate movie and saying, Oh, I'm gonna go and I'm I'm gonna do karate against you. Like, let's fight, right? You're you're you're watching the entertainment and then you're trying to bring it into your real life, like there's a skill set there, but porn doesn't teach you a skill set. And so I think that the limited information has people really limited until they really start to have more of a growth mindset around what sex and intimacy can look like.
SPEAKER_01I like that language, a growth mindset, because that can serve people their entire lives through a a crisis and a journey like this, as well as other things that they're gonna come up against in in the course of their life and relationship. I a couple other things that I've heard couples say, and maybe this does help to expanding their box around sexuality, is just that uh sex becomes kind of like an an event to attend or with a hoped outcome almost in that it uh it takes all the fun and the play out of it. But what I hear you saying is that uh we can incorporate the fun and the play in other ways, and that that's that that's such an important piece to this people in this journey in this season.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. Um, in general, as adults, we need more play. We deserve it, and we don't allow ourselves as much play as we should, right? We when we look at children and and just see them in their element, not worrying, they're just so vulnerable. They're not worrying about what other people are gonna think, they're not judging themselves, they're just really having a good time. Um, us as adults, because of societal expectations and conditions, it's really hard for us to be in that state. And even if we do find ourselves in that state, we often pull ourselves out really quickly, right? Because we need to be productive, we need to have an outcome, we need to be reaching a goal. That is not sexy to have all of that pressure added. Um, and so again, really encouraging uh individuals who are in the family-building um fertility process and they've experienced um, you know, some challenges with that and they're along that journey to remind themselves that play is okay. I often tell people, you know, if if, for example, you have scheduled sex that you, you know, you have to have for the fertility journey and process, also have some time where you are really just playing, where you're enjoying one another, where you're exploring, where there is no expectation besides to learn something about your partner, where you're having times that are carved out to talk about your emotional as well as physical intimacy. That's gonna help you grow and help you be more connected, that's gonna release that oxytocin, that helps you feel more close to your partner and more loved by them. So those are gonna be really, really important, especially during this journey, because what we know from what the research has shown is that this process can increase sexual dysfunction in individuals as well as increase divorce. So we want to increase moments of connection as much as we can to be able to have couples to be as resilient as they can around the stressors that they're experiencing at why they navigate fertility.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and I'm thinking one piece of that most probably is just that idea of seeing and experiencing sex as a performance, especially in these kinds of situations when you're you're looking for an end result, right? And it's really awkward for us, all of us, to not be present in our bodies and not be having our mind, you know, judging am I in the right position or my partner in the right position, or the ideal position? Where's the sperm going? You know, is it gonna happen this time? Will I get pregnant this time? You know, all of those things that just uh roll around in our mind and our thoughts don't allow us then to be present. And the antidote to that is you know, mindfulness exercises and we we we have episodes about mindfulness with Lori Brottle on this show. I'd encourage you to go back and listen if you haven't, listeners. But just the idea that what Dr. Jack's talking about of how can you stay connected and enjoy the sex you're having? Communication is so key here, as in anything related to sex and relationships, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. It it is, it is, and the mindfulness piece um so, so important. I think most of the women that I that I work with, regardless if they are going through the fertility journey, um, have brought this idea of like, I'm in my head, I'm judging myself, I'm wondering if my partner is liking what I'm doing. I'm thinking about my body perfectionism, you know, I'm wanting making, I'm wanting to make sure that my my partner orgasm. I'm I'm I'm wanting to orgasm. I don't want them to not think that I don't like it because I didn't work. It's just like on and on and on and on, and it's overwhelming. And it's like you mentioned, it takes you completely out of what's happening in the present. And so I love that idea of mindfulness to bring you back home to yourself. Being able to connect with your partner through breath is an amazing way to kind of help that process because you're focusing on breathing together. So that's one of the exercises that I encourage the couples that I work with to do. But we we definitely need more of that.
SPEAKER_01I would love to have you tell me more about the breathing together. Uh, working on that this exercise that you encourage about your breath. Would you speak to that a little bit?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So the first thing that you would really focus on is connecting through energy with breath, right? And so one of the practices that I encourage couples to do, and again, this is often really helpful, especially if they're feeling pressure for like that performance pressure. Like we're gonna take sex off the table. If that happens, that's fine. But that's not the expectation of this exercise. The expectation is just to really connect, get really as close as you can to one another where you're feeling comfortable, either holding hands, you know, foreheads touching, noses touching, and then both of you all start to breathe from the diaphragm. So diaphragmatic breathing together until you really feel like you all are breathing at the same frequence. And it is extremely, extremely powerful because when you take this practice, when you when you practice it regularly, right, and you and your partner can get in sync with your breath, and then you transfer this to a physical intimacy, sexual experience, it completely has you embodied in the experience, embodied in what's happening in the moment, really present with your partner, right? All those docs that are that are going on in your head, you're focused on your breath and you're connecting with your partner on a deeper level, and it can really be a transformative experience. That's definitely something that uh it it's just really magical, uh, just to think about how connected it can feel in that moment.
SPEAKER_01That sounds amazing. And I'm I'm thinking, I wonder if someone's listening and thinking, oh boy, could we start like with our backs to each other first? Maybe uh that would be a way to just not feel as intimidated, maybe, or get started, you know, because I'm I'm watching if you could see Dr. Fox first describing this, it's uh you know, if you're very passionate about it. And and people often need a place to start. So if you don't feel like maybe you can face your partner, possibly you could sit back to back or stand back to back together and start that way.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, absolutely. It is as close as is comfortable for you to. You know, uh in the intimacy uh experience, a lot of times, especially like, you know, individuals who have history of, you know, sexual shame, sexual trauma, etc. There's something about this practice that really helps individuals to feel safe.
SPEAKER_01And we want people to uh be present to experience pleasure together. I love what you say. You say a pleasured woman is an empowered woman. Tell me about that. Tell me why that's something that you say.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it's I believe that you know, women specifically have been so inhibited through social conditioning. And I think that it takes a level of audacity to be able to figure out what pleasure feels like in your body and to be able to communicate that. And it's a difficult journey, it takes communication, it takes self-reflection, it takes awareness. And when women are able to really hone in on what feels good to them and communicate that in a way to experience more joy and pleasure within their body, there's something empowering about that process. And so that's where that comes from for me.
SPEAKER_01I love every single bit of that.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it's just a beautiful way to frame that out. And even as we talked about breath and as we keep bringing up communication, something that's so important for us to keep reminding each other is that we have to start with ourselves, even before a partner. And like you're saying, understanding what what pleases us, what brings us pleasure, how we feel about sex, how we feel about connection. All of that we bring in. And wow, I would I would assume that that really plays a heavy role in the fertility process as well. And you also have a lot of work that you do with women who've experienced loss or miscarriage. This is a common life event for people. It just really can affect their connection, relationship, and sex life. I'd love to kind of pivot a little bit and have you speak to that, as this is one of the areas you really focus on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. And if it's okay with you, Cindy, I'd love to share personally why this topic is, you know, just so important to me. I love how you mentioned that it's not talked about, because that is one of the things that I feel like I have really dedicated myself to being an advocate for, just speaking on this topic more. Um, because I think oftentimes it's a very lonely journey, and a lot of people feel like I'm the only one who has experienced that. And what we know based on the research is just that's just not the fact. And so a lot of times with some of the women that I've worked with, like when they do go back and you know talk to their mother and their grandmother and their aunts and their cousins and their friends, they find that it's a very common experience, but it's just a hidden common experience. So I am really on want to be on the side of history that helps it to help to um normalize that experience for women. Um, but personally, about two and a half years ago, I experienced a miscarriage. And it is one of the reasons why I have decided to become an certified intimacy and relationship coach, because it really, really challenged the intimacy in my marriage. Before the miscarriage, my husband and I had, you know, we had great sex. Um, we didn't talk about sex all that often. Um, and it was just because, like, other than like, yeah, that was great. We we didn't have a lot of conversations around it. And after I experienced my miscarriage, I felt very disconnected from my body. Um, I was having symptoms of depression. Sex felt like a lot of pressure. Um, there was a lot of anxiety associated with, okay, if I get pregnant again, what's gonna happen? And it really impacted our intimacy. And when I looked around for tools and resources that were available, we we were already in couple therapy. And I I often tell people this a lot. A lot of couples therapists aren't necessarily trained to talk about sex. So they'll kind of check in and be like, hey, you know, house intimacy. Okay, y'all they're doing it, check. Um, but they won't really kind of delve deeper into the topic. Um, and so that was our experience in therapy. And so I'm looking for all of these additional resources. And everything was focused on the external. So it was like, oh, you know, get this lingerie, or, you know, if you work out and lose weight, you know, you'll feel sexy and intimacy will be great. And I was like, I truly need to heal from the inside out. As a psychologist, I truly knew that that was important to me and I needed to internally heal to be able to show up for the intimacy in my relationship in a different way. And so did a lot of some of the work that I've mentioned here, a lot of like the deep breathing with my partner to connect emotionally as well as physically, but also did a lot of mindset work, you know, really focused on, you know, journaling and engaging in activities and self-reflection that helped me to heal, helped me to forgive my body for disappointing me and healed through that process. And also having some very vulnerable and intentional conversations with my partner, how our intimacy may be different, what I needed. All of those conversations were new and they were challenging initially, but we kept at it. We were determined to fix our intimacy. And so now years later, um, I I felt so happy that we went through that process together and wanted to create something for other women who have looked around and have not necessarily found something that particularly met their needs. And so that is how my coaching business was born.
SPEAKER_01I appreciate you sharing your story because, like you said, this uh topic and losing a baby is so often in silence, and people do feel so alone. And then I think also what ends up happening, like you said, is if you don't talk about it with your partner and you don't investigate yourself, you're even more isolated and alone.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And so I think it's beautiful for the listeners to hear the journey that that you're sharing and and the steps you took. Oh, it wasn't I'm sure it wasn't easy. And it was hard work.
SPEAKER_00It was definitely hard work. It was definitely hard work.
SPEAKER_01You know, to to come to a different place to work through your agree and how it affected your intimacy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's beautiful to hear that because you know, Dr. Jack, uh I think people need to hear that they have permission. Permission to do this work, that it's a it's a part of a healthy wholeness in your own self and in your relationship. I think sometimes people see their sexuality and intimacy uh as separate from their whole self. And it truly we we are all one. It is all we are all just one. It's just one thing. It's our whole healthy self.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love that you're saying that because I I sometimes look at your like sexual wellness, like off in the corner, like you mentioned, as like something else when it really is. It's under the umbrella of health and wellness, um, and being a human.
SPEAKER_01What would be you shared the breathing piece and you shared journaling, you know, in dealing with grief and miscarriage and then and then the challenges to your sexual relationship. Tell me a little bit about that. Is it something you encourage then your clients to do?
SPEAKER_00I I do two things. I encourage them to just journal from top of mind. Um, because I think that sometimes for some people, having the restriction of, okay, I need to answer this specific prompt really takes them away from being able to connect with whatever is coming up and not judging that. Um, so I I encourage kind of just being able to journal just a couple of minutes a day about what just brain dump, whatever comes up, right? And you can look at it later and see if there's a pattern that then starts to come alive based off of the information that you know you reflect on, but also don't have the expectation that that that may be either, right? So it's just really an opportunity to allow your brain to release some of the thoughts that are there. I will also provide them with prompts that are specifically focused around them self-reflecting on their fertility journey as well as where their intimacy is currently and where they want it to go, what they want it to look like in the future. So they can gain a lot of clarity around what it is that they want, right? I know you meant you asked me earlier, you know, what does it mean to be an empowered woman when it comes to pleasure? And I think a piece of that is learning and understanding what it is that you want to need. And oftentimes the, especially the women that I work with will say, I don't know what turns me on, especially like my fifth gender heterosexual women, they will, you know, whatever my partner likes, or you know, I just like I just like it when when I turn them on. And I'm constantly bringing them back to separate from them, separate from your partner. How is it that you feel turned on? What makes you feel desired? How do you know that you are open and willing to become intimate, to connect? What do those circumstances look like, right? Take your partner away. What does the environment look like? What are you smelling? What are you hearing? What are you tasting? What is your mood like? So things like that I think are extremely, extremely important to be able to have uh people to connect to. And so the prompts that I provide will really kind of walk them through, really learning about their selves and their desire, their turn-offs, and what they want sex and intimacy to look like. For example, like redefining it, expanding that definition to you know include things like touch and um massage and caressing and kissing and cuddling and hugging and breathing together, right? Um, all of that can be really erotic and sensual. So that's what the journaling looks like, which is usually two parts freedom to brain dump and have a time and space where the intentionality is just to be with your dogs. And then secondly, some prompts that really walk you through your journey of fertility or miscarriage and what you want your intimacy to look like in the now. So that's another piece. A lot of times, you know, we can, and it's common, we can compare it to 20 years ago or five years ago, or when we first got married, or to our last partner, right? Oh, you know, the sex with them was really good and it's not as good. Well, you were with them for three months. Yeah, it was good. You were in the honeymoon phase. You won't worry, we don't dealt with oxytocin, right? But what happens is we can start that comparison. And so just really helping to bring bring individuals home by connecting their thoughts and really helping them to hone in on the thoughts that are going to help them to have more desirous thoughts that are going to increase their likelihood to connect with themselves and their partner.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I believe, I believe that especially if you've experienced grief or loss, it's difficult to sit with ourselves and uh journal or brain dump because like for for me, I I I would know I'm gonna okay, I'm gonna cry, I'm probably gonna get upset, I'm gonna feel all the feels, and sometimes you know we don't want to feel all the feels, but the truth of the matter is that feeling all the feels and allowing yourself that space to do that is what, like you're saying, what will move you towards healthier uh patterns, ways to communicate, figuring out what you need and desire and want. And grieving is a normal process. We often don't give ourselves permission and space to grieve.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. You know, I often tell my clients you have to go through to get out. And so I totally agree with that. And I think it's also important to note that in a relationship, there's two individuals that may grieve very differently. A lot of times, the clients that come to me, um, they have some resentment that they're holding on to. Uh, because, for example, you know, they may be grieving externally, like with a lot of tears, and you know, reaching out to for support from their partner, and their partner may be grieving completely the opposite. They may be internalizing it, right? There may not be tears, but there may be pain that is that is equal. And so being able to have individuals to come together and give each other permission to have their personalized experience through the grief process is going to be really important. I often do that by bringing both individuals and the couple together and having sessions that are really focused on them really understanding each other's process through the grief.
SPEAKER_01There's there's a lot to be said from the science about doing that together. So I love hearing that you bring the couples, you know, bring both in and and have them work on that together.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yes. Um it's important. It really is about coming togetherness and remembering that, yes, we're separate individuals, but we also have this shared goal of being in relationship with one another.
SPEAKER_01I would love for you to tell people where they can find you and your work in the world, Dr. Jack.
SPEAKER_00Yes, so you can find me by connecting with me through my website, uh, which is www.drjack.co. So that's D-R-J-A-C.co. Um, I have on my website a free guide to have better connections to some of the things that we talked about today, such as you know, mindfulness, the importance of connecting to one stuff, etc., part of that guide. So you can go and grab that and that will add it to my email list, and you'll be able to, you know, get the most up-to-date information on things that I have going on, as well as I'm constantly just offering tips and suggestions in ways that women and couples can have better intimacy and better relationships with their partners.
SPEAKER_01It's great to hear. And I I wonder, would you share just something that delight you day to day?
SPEAKER_00The sunset. I have a beautiful, beautiful sunset at my home. And I make it a daily practice to slow down practice as I work at home. Um slow down and really take time to appreciate that. Um, I also have a pond in my backyard, and so it's just really just a beautiful visual. I use that as a moment of mindfulness to ground myself every day, and it really does bring me lots of joy. Yes, that makes me very, very delighted. I'm smiling as I as I think about it.
SPEAKER_01I'm smiling with you. Thank you so much for sharing that and for being with us today.
SPEAKER_00Oh, thank you so much, Cindy. It has been a pleasure, and thank you for the work that you do in this world, for your wonderful podcast and your listeners. I'm sure they're gaining so, so much from the information that you're putting into the world.
SPEAKER_01Oh, thank you for that. And listeners, let's remember what Dr. Jack says is a pleasured woman, it's an empowered woman. Oh, if we keep that in mind, that will help us give ourselves permission for pleasure.
